here here! I totally agree,too!

Interesting perspective, Arcadian.  But I think what Texian Traveler is responding to is when women respond in a submissive manner.  When they say "I may be wrong", or appologize before it is necessary, it could  be viewed as their opinion or comments are unworthy.  Many women are still brought up to thing they are 2nd to men.  But we all know there is no reason for girls/women to be treated as a lesser person nor for them to feel as though their ideas or opinions are not as important as a man's.

Interesting and not confined to women alone either. Yet surely respect must still lie at the core of it all ? Perhaps this unfortunate submissiveness in many cases might have been because their opinions and feelings were never accorded their due respect, for whatever reason, in the first place. Since childhood.  And that over time they've gradually become so over sensitive and used to it they've simply acquiesced and accepted it as the norm. A habit that I think must be hard to break when adult.

How to help them overcome and get past it then becomes interesting because first off you run the risk of becoming patronizing, and being already over sensitive they must soon start resenting this ! Equally this might then be the ideal solution by deliberately stinging them into action to defeat their submissiveness themselves ? As everyone but everyone just hates to be patronized !  

Bikerbraid made me realize how much my behavior is colored by what I do.  I am a teacher, and I am continually trying to get my students to achieve more, have the courage to realize their dreams, BE more.  I hadn't thought that I was doing it here too, but I she made me realize that I was.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.  I definitely was NOT attempting to be patronizing.

The grad school I was in was for educational administration, and I guess I noticed it in part because there was one woman that did it a LOT.  That started me looking at other women, and lo and behold, a far greater number of them were "apologists" than men.  Although you are right, Arcadian, I have noticed the behavior in men as well. 

Part of the reason it made such an impression was I was thinking, "This woman is going to be a leader, and she can't make a statement without apologizing for it first?"  The trait called in to question, for me at least, her ability to be a strong leader, and I don't think I would be alone in that.  So if so many more women do this than men, from my observation at least, that raises two questions.

One, is the trait simply a result of women working more in the realm of feeling than men (in general), or is it a learned trait of submissiveness?  The second can be dealt with more easily than the first.

Two, would the trait prevent those that have it (male or female) from achieving the same level of leadership than those that don't?  If so, that means women will never achieve leadership positions in the same numbers as men until they stop doing it.

Curious to know your thoughts.

Quote:


Heavens ! I hadn't realised all the earlier goings on !  

To begin with I'm no expert on all this at all, just some views and thoughts accumulated over many years. This is not apologizing rather it stems from not wishing to be seen as a knowall, i.e. arrogant lol ! With that said and looking back I know I've achieved what I want and can more less pinpoint the year and month I set out to do it. Prior to that in my late thirties I hadn't a clue and was as about as unmotivated as you can get. So from just my own experience I would deduce that it depends on when and how you finally do get motivated about something sufficiently enough to start, rather than any necessary specific trait or traits.

Very much like a story I once read of the eight or nine survivors of an American DC3 transport plane shot down far behind the Japanese lines in Burma during the Second World War. The crew survivors knew their best bet was to try to escape to Thailand or somewhere neutral fairly close by, but this involved many days even weeks of trekking through the jungle, swamps, deadly snakes and very hilly terrain in appalling heat whilst trying to hide from highly trained enemy patrols ordered to capture them. Most of the untrained crew were for giving themselves up immediately because of their injuries and potential disease especially malaria. However the captain and his co-pilot agreed neither could ever face internment and almost certain death without at least making the effort to try and escape. So after leaving two of the most badly wounded with a couple of others who wanted to surrender, the remainder set out and after about a couple of months two or three, very close to death, finally made it safely to the border and freedom.

But it was one or two paragraphs that have always stuck in my mind ever since. With just the basic issue emergency survival rations and a compass and having to live off whatever they could find to survive, the author who was the chief pilot described the sickening feeling when thinking they were getting close to the border every time they reached the top of one hill, only to see yet more even higher hills ahead. And even more after that. And so on yet higher and higher hills shimmering tantalisingly in the dreadful heat. And always there were the black clouds of flies and mosquitos. This dreadful repetition he said became so dispiritingly endless and soul sapping that many times he too often felt compelled to listen to the others and give up. Yet the harder things got and the more obstacles that appeared the more angry, bloody minded and determined he became to reach the border. No matter what the personal physical and mental costs.

Obviously this is about an extreme example as you can get largely based on the will to live, but he could have surrendered at any time he chose and the others would have followed even though they knew it meant certain torture and probable death. And whilst physical strength must have played a huge part too, one of the crew was a small very wiry guy who later on admitted he never knew how much reserves of strength and will power he had until he was forced to find out.

So rather than any specific trait or traits, I think it's the depth and amount of determination that anyone , male or female, can summon up first plus being strong willed about something (anything !!) to begin with. Or to be perfectly frank utterly bloody minded to the point of silent and well concealed ruthlessness. To find somewhere within themselves the fire to achieve at all costs what they're seeking is what really counts in the end. It doesn't have to be towards financial rewards particularly, just that they have more than enough will to reach whatever goal or goals they set for themselves at the beginning. And if getting your students nicely riled up and regularly close to boiling point over some issue means them then entering into positive reactions as distinct from their constant negative ones then surely that can't be such a bad thing ? Similar in a way to the stroppy opposite reactions that many children have when you tell them they are not allowed do something, knowing with a 100 per cent certainty that they will then go and do it !!  

Anything therefore is fair game if it can undermine and dissolve the constant need to fall back into their safe apologetic submissive state, whether via patronizing or whatever, providing of course it's objectively judged to be in their long term interests.

Or to put it another way when you personally get really mad and angry at something (not someone !) things do often tend to have quite a satisfying habit of getting sorted one way or another ! In much the same way as the captain discovered.

Oops that went on a bit ! Too hot today to think clearly so excuse any errors but I hope you get the general drift ?  

TT - I applaud your motives and am quite sure your comments to your students would never be misunderstood for anything other than constructive.  As a behaviorist myself, I firmly believe that change is most likely to occur with positive suggestion and reinforcement.  Add to that your educational environment and a student's mind is open to ideas and change.  Plus, I'm sure your students look up to you for guidance, so your suggestions would have a maximum impact.  Keep up the good work.