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L'Etoile Perdue by William Bouguereau







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Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood (Read 99429 times)
khrome
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #75 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 6:52am
 
This is a very stimulating conversation.  I haven't really formulated an opinion about prolonging life on a larger scale, but here is what goes through my mind when I think of health in my own little universe:

I have tons of health problems, so I appreciate a certain quality of life.  I know what it's like to live below that quality, and it really infringes on your life as a whole because discomfort or pain is all you feel all day long.  If I have these problems at 32, what more at 60?  

I don't want to live forever, but I don't want to live the last 20 years of my life dependant on other people, or bedridden either.  When I say dependant, I mean REALLY a burden.  Not just the normal taking-care-of-a-relative sort of thing.

I wish there was just an off-switch. Not that I'm not ready to leave any time soon, but when I do, I wish it wasn't against the law to terminate my own life.  

It is humane to put down animals but not humane to put down humans.?  I know religion factors into this.  But barring religion, if you are keeping a loved one alive, or the law is keeping them alive, they are not really thinking of the well-being of the ill person.  I'm not talking about people on machines that can't make their own decisions, but people who are sane and concious and feel it's their time to go.

Okay, I think my thought-streaming is done.  Smiley

Cynde
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bikerbraid
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #76 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 10:47am
 
Well said, Khrome!   Cheesy

My opinions fall along the same line - could it be that people who have experienced chronic pain/health issues maybe have a more realistic view of what a quality of life really is?  I have a 2 year period of my life that I NEVER want to relive or live like that again.  The only thing that kept me going during that time was the knowledge that there was a reasonable solution (surgery) that would improve my quality of life..... I would not want to live like that again.
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bikerbraid
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Moonchild
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #77 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 12:07pm
 
Sorry to hear this Krome and BB

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Sakina
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #78 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 5:05pm
 
In Aboriginal culture, when its their time to go the go "walk about" and their spirits walk right out of their bodies.  I've also seen this in Indian culture with the Saddhus.  I suggest reading "Mutant Messages Down Under" (sorry, at the moment I don't remember the author but it is a woman).

We are not our bodies.  Maybe if we remembered that we'd know we could leave when the body was failing and move on.

I agree, that people who have not had their quality of life truly diminished have no honest experience and only have a thought or dogma.
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novusfemina
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #79 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 10:03pm
 
Thought I'd throw in a bit of opinion here..  Wink

I have to take hormones because it seems my err..  "female parts" like to work overtime.  I'm grateful for technology and for medical advances, because I intially found out about my problem because it had caused a medical emergency.  And I wasn't ready to die at 21. 

But where does that quality over quantity of life come into play? 

Maybe that's a personal question, rather than something to answer en masse.  Personally, I'd like to stay here as long as I have breath in my body!  I'm not afraid of death, I'd just like to enjoy my time here on Earth.  Yet, at the same time, I'd rather not see people suffer, and continue to hurt here in this life if they don't want to...
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #80 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 5:29am
 
This subject is surely getting tough and deep. Emotions and attitudes can fly high.
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #81 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 7:25am
 
It is a touchy one and I guess we must be careful.

It's also an important one to each and every one of us.

The bottom line always comes back to the total of the individuals wishes (or it should IMO).  The trick is to be wise enough to find a way to get those wishes carried out if one is no longer able to make them for oneself.

Personally, I would rather err on the side of checking out too soon than too late.

The comparisons the our animal friends always comes up and I'm not sure it's totally a good match.  We, as humans have many more ways to enjoy our life through the assistances we've been talking about.  We can also communicate our desires and hopefully have them carried out.

I love life but I have seen the sides that would make me want to stop...it's just one of those things that you kinda have to be there to get the full scope ...g
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #82 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 10:37pm
 
This is becoming quite a conversation.  Since it is Friday and I don't have to go back into the thick of things at the hospital for a couple of days, I feel a little more able to cope with putting my thoughts down here.
As has already been noted, one's world-view, or basic spiritual belief system is really the driving force behind each of our opinions on this.  So to lay it out, I'm starting from a Bible-based Christianity point of view.  To me that means quality of life is a side issue because there are redeeming/spiritual growths that occur in direct connection to suffering whether emotional or physical.  These can be for the person afflicted and/or for those around them, often for everyone involved.

I'm thinking specifically of a family in our church.  Their beautiful, lovely, vibrant daughter had a brain cancer at the age of 7.  After all the treatment to "cure" the cancer she was mentally retarded and as time went on she eventually became more and more debilitated.  She died in her early 20's, after a broken hip and several strokes - more like an 80 year old.  What was her quality of life?  Not good. What was it like for her family? Extremely difficult, but they wouldn't have given that up for anything.  She influenced so many people and encouraged so many people.  Her funeral was overflowing with people she had touched and whose lives she had enriched. 

This does not mean I want or take any pleasure in people suffering.  Not by any stretch.  It does mean I look beyond the pain for the bigger picture that God has.  Even if I can't see the bigger picture (which is the norm here on Earth) I remember that beautiful tapestries are made of bright threads and golden highlights, but they only shine when offset by dark ones.  And I hope my life is seen as a beautiful tapestry to those around me.

See, I shouldn't write about these philosophical discussions on a Friday evening after work, don't know when and how to  Lips Sealed!
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30.75" ~78cm/waist&&1bFii&&&&"No chance at all if you think you can pull it off by yourself.  Every chance in the world if you let God do it."  The Message Mark 10:27
 
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #83 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 1:04am
 
PreciousLocks, you stated your thoughts very well.  Thank you for sharing them.
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bikerbraid
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #84 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 3:03am
 
Oh how deep this topic has become. All I can say tonight  is that I agree with a little bit of what everyone has said. I will come up with a better response another day, but I'm busy. Smiley
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #85 - Sep 11th, 2005 at 12:17am
 
You know, my dad has to really on different types of pills to live, in certain cases its a good thing, but personally, I woulnd't liek to ahve to relly on the pill as my savior.It's also dangerous when these medicines intereact with others. Also I knwo someone said they had somethign to do with teh medicine industry (sorry I don't remember too well). Of course t many some doctors support medictaion to help humanity (but I feel it is the big corporations that are evil in waya nd greedy and don't care if we die as logn as they gte our money). But I know that if I had family and loved ones I would have to do it for them Smiley. So I see where some people are coming from. But always I will look for a natural alterntive .
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #86 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 7:10am
 
Ok, so here goes how I think about this. I hope that nobody takes offense of my dealing with this as an ethical question that can be answered. I mean no disrespect to differing opinions  and know that I might be wrong, but in philosophy moral questions aren't treated with "everyone is right in a way" kind of way. It is polite, but it's the job of a philosopher to try to find the best possible answer to a moral question. So, this is what I would answer if someone asked me what is right in this matter.

Eventually, I suppose that this is a question that each of us must solve for ourselves- and that is why I support right to choose. We all have different beliefs concerning relevant things like possible afterlife, value of life in itself and importance of life free of suffering. In my opinion, the responsibility of choice belongs to the individual. Both forcing one to live or die take that responsibility away from the person whose life it is and give it to others. I think that's wrong because that denies the person's right to make moral decisions for herself- it takes away her autonomy and puts her to the same category with children, senile people and animals who aren't autonomous moral agents.
    In my opinion, moral decisions aren't always actions but they are choices that mind makes. For example, if someone really wants to commit suicide, she has in fact already chosen that and the lack of means to act according to her choice won't change her moral status the least bit. Lacking the means is against her moral choice- and therefore she can't be given credit for not taking her own life. She hasn't chosen her omission freely.
     I think we all can agree, that only choices made out of free will have moral significance. Otherwise, it's "morality of gunpoint"- the situation is similar to if you are forced to do something points a gun at you and threatens to shoot if you don't obey. In such a situation, you are not to blame even if you do something contrary to your everyday moral. While heroical behavior in extreme situations is to be praiseworthy, it can't be an expected of everyone.
      We can't prevent others from making moral choices, and therefore we shouldn't take them away all means of doing according to their beliefs. In my eyes, a person should not be forced to die or to live- she should be free to choose and to bear the consequences of her choice, whatever they may be.
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #87 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 10:24pm
 
Well said!  I really admire your ability to think deeply and express your thoughts clearly in the English language!  Brava!!

Edited to erase extra spaces put in by Jupiter (the kitten) stepping on the enter key!


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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #88 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 9:08pm
 
Like Sakina, I am in awe of your ability to express yourself in the English language Galadriel.

I've only had one intro to philosophy course, many years ago, so I can't claim any expertise here.  My comments come from my years of living and observations of life - and death - around me.

Philosophy is a good way to think through moral questions.  I find when the issue comes upon me face-to-face (that is in the form of myself or another person struggling with that issue in their own life), the answers of philosophy seem to be made in a vacuum. i.e. The choice to live or die does not affect just the person making that choice, it also affects that person's family and friends for the rest of their lives; and there are people who would choose at one point to end their lives, but at another time would not consider that to be a valid decision. 

Quote:
if someone really wants to commit suicide, she has in fact already chosen that and the lack of means to act according to her choice won't change her moral status the least bit
  That's true.  She has the ability to change that moral decision also.  How do you know when your choice is the "right" one?

Just hoping to stimulate more debate on the subject....
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Re: Short Hair and teh Struggle for Womanhood
Reply #89 - Sep 16th, 2005 at 7:52am
 
PreciousLocks:
   When trying to solve extremely complex problems like moral problems, simplifications must be made when possible. It is simply impossible to think eg. what is the "sphere of consequences" for any action- chaos theory has proven that well. That is why philosophers are often wary of evaluating things based on their consequences. Especially when there are other good ways to do the job.  Wink Consequences of an act are part of what makes the act good or bad -we expect that good acts result in desirable states of affairs at least for most of the time- but that's not the whole story (eg. on the other hand most people don't think that murder is right and good even if the victim was a "bad person").

Philosophers don't "calculate" answers to moral questions (as is commonly believed): we don't take facts of the situation, then take a theory that appeals to us and use it too determine what would be the right decision according to that theory. Moral questions are far more complex than that, and at the moment, there isn't a "supertheory" that could be used as a "moral computer". There are theories, and they are used as tools in the sense that they are used as aids to thinking, together with logic and with imagination of individual thinker.

How do I know if my moral decision is the right one? Well, that's the problem, isn't it?! Smiley There is no great book where the "absolutely right" answers are available and where we could go to check the right answer. (Granted, there are plenty of books who claim to be just that- unfortunately all of them base their claims of reliability on arguing in circle and that's why one who really wants truth and nothing but the truth, can't take their word for being The Book). Also, it seems that sometimes morally admirable choices result in very bad consequences from point of view of the individual (just think of all the martyrs).
   My homespun answer that has more than a sprinkling of virtue ethics in it is, that the right moral choice is the one that makes you a better (and consequently also happier) person compared to what you were prior to making that choice. While we may disagree to some extent on what traits constitute an excellent "ideal" person, I think that we would also agree in many places, and from there we can also try to agree on what kind of action is a kind or generous act in a given situation. From which it follows, that after we have made a moral choice, we can evaluate it and think, whether it was a choice that good person would have made or not.

Gabi, I think you've hit exactly to the point I tried to make when you say that people make mistakes. The question I'm asking is essentially, who should (and who can) be the one to bear consequences of those mistakes?

Iiiinteresting discussion! Smiley
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